After writing a piece (again, not meant to be exhaustive or systematic, just anecdotal) on why I hold to Covenant Theology, a good friend of mine (Van Edwards) commented, “So when I read this, should I interpret it as a literal allegory or allegorically literal?” I’m sure it was tongue-in-cheek. But it prompted me in just as much fun to write a little prod back. However, I thought I’d write a bit more, mostly for myself, but if it can help to carry a dialogue along with anyone else, then good!
I think what Van is getting at in his comment is, if I consent that some Scripture should be understood allegorically, then how do I know what Scripture that is, and what Scripture that is not. However, my jab back to him and my thought now is, “Isn’t that a fair question for the Dispensationalist as well?” First, I have not found a Covenant Theologian (in my circles…namely, conservative) that would not hold to the view that Scripture should be interpreted literally where possible. That is to say, unless there is a reason to interpret it non-literally, then it should be understood literally. The Dispensationalists that I’ve been under and those whose books I’ve read say the same thing. The difference between both groups is what Scripture is to be understood literally.
From my Covenantal viewpoint, I come to prophecy not for a detailed roadmap, but for hope (Isa. 40:1; Luke 21:28; 1 Thess. 4:18, 5:11). When I consider many of the prophecies in the Old Testament that speak to the coming Messiah, I see some details revealed (that were literally fulfilled, although the readers didn’t get it any more than Jesus’ contemporaries…even after He pointed them out) that point to how Jesus came, lived and died. However, most of the prophecy was speaking to give God’s people hope, and to point them to the object of their faith. If we see through a glass dimly, they were looking through a really, really dim glass. We look back at OT prophecy about the Messiah, and say, “It’s so clear!” Now when we consider the return of Christ, we are in their shoes. But we don’t have a detailed roadmap (in my opinion). Rather we have an overview of the overall movement.
Other than prophecy, we (Covenant Theologians) and Dispensationalists share much in common. This is why our libraries look so similar and we often attend the same conferences. It really comes down to how we approach prophetical Scripture, and more specifically who is/are God’s people(s) and what will the end look like. Dispensationalists like to say it is hermeneutics. They accuse Covenantal folks of interpreting Scripture allegorically. But again, find a conservative CT who treats any/all Scripture allegorically. I haven’t found one. Rather, I’ve found only those who come to certain types of Biblical writing (literary types) with allegorical glasses (such as poetry).
So is it hermeneutics or the system of theology that triumphs the Dispensational cause? The ones who I’ve talked with over the years argued they, as Dispensationalists, don’t teach theology. They teach Scripture. And they do so literally. Consistently literally. But this never seemed right to me. First, what bothered me about this was logic. As I grew older I came to realize that no one comes to anything they study without predispositions toward a system of understanding. This same argument is one we use for those trying to prove evolution. They come to every “scientific” study they conduct with a predisposition toward their system of “evolutionism.” We all do this. The Dispensationalist argues that his system is simply the Bible, and the literal interpretation of that. Okay then, that’s your system. But then can your system triumph the actual meaning of the text? I say, from logic alone, “yes!” For example, when Christ said at the Last Supper, “This is my body,” was it literally body or literally bread? Now I’m not trying to stir up a debate here of Lutheran type. My point is, what did Christ literally mean and what does it literally mean for us? Most Dispensationalists say communion (the Lord’s Supper) is a memorial. It’s not literally Christ’s flesh. To use a prophetic example, what about Ezekiel’s valley of dry bones? What about when Jeremiah said he would remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh? (that was Jeremiah wasn’t it…it’s getting late!) Even Darby stated that John 14:18 spoke of an invisible coming of the Holy Spirit (not visible or “literal”).
Recently, I listened to a speech by John MacArthur (entitled, “Why Every Self-Respecting Calvinist is a Pre-Millennialist”). In this talk, he laid out the premise that if your hermeneutic is correct, they you’ll get Israel right, and if you get
Israel right then you’ll get eschatology right (can’t remember if that is exact, or even the right order, but it’s close I believe). But he spoke this in defense of premillennialism. I know several Covenantal guys who are historical premillennialists. How did they get to the “right” conclusion with the wrong hermeneutic (I’m assuming he’d consider historic premillennialism as correct because he didn’t differentiate between Dispensational Premillennialism and Historic)? If both CT and Disp. folks can come to the same eschatology, then it’s not their getting
Israel “right” or their hermeneutic. Rather, each system allows one to come to premillennialism. This means that the two hermeneutics aren’t the driving force but rather the theological systems themselves. Dispensationalism does not allow one to come to Amillennialism (which he was critiquing). Covenant Theology allows one to come to any of the three major views. So, I would argue, Dispensationalism drives one to both a separate view of
Israel and the Church and to Dispensational Premillennialism. I haven’t met or read a Dispensationalist who will concede this, but I am convinced of it both from their writing and from my own experience.
The second issue that has bothered me about the Dispensationalists’ claim to interpret Scripture consistently literally (the first was logic) is from Scripture itself. As I have pointed out above, there are a number of passages that Dispensationalists do not interpret literally. I will cite only one (since I have pointed out others above and even more are readily available in writings by scholars who merit more attention than my own ramblings). I refer to Psalm 22. In this psalm, there are portions that were literally fulfilled. Christ did cry out, “my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Soldiers did cast lots for his clothing. But Christ is not a worm (v. 6), nor did bulls surround him (v. 12), nor dogs (v. 16), nor was He afraid of the mouth of an actual lion (v. 21). My point here is that the audience of that day would not have known what portion of that prophetic psalm was to be viewed literally and what was to be viewed allegorically. A point was simply that the Messiah would suffer and die. His death would be one in innocence. This passage doesn’t give a detailed roadmap (although we understand the details in hindsight, but those that were literally fulfilled and those that were allegorical).
So while the Dispensationalist is driven by a theological system of God working inconsistently through history, Covenant Theologians are driven by a system of one single unified movement of God unfolded in history. It is the latter that I hold to. I admit I am no less objective (nor more) than the Dispensationalist when it comes to hermeneutics. Rather, we are both influenced and sometimes driven by our theological system. And so to answer my friend Van, interpret what I am saying literally, unless you deem that it must be taken allegorically! :-)
I'm not afraid to own up to my theological mistakes!
ResponderEliminar"What word would you use to describe the dispensations and how God worked differently?"
ResponderEliminarDefine "how God worked differently."
"When OT prophecy predicted Christ would ride on a donkey, did they know that would literally be fulfilled?"
How did the scribes know that the Christ would literally be born in Bethlehem if the prophecy had not been fulfilled yet?
Different in the sense that the 7 (or so) dispensations had different forms of God interacting with His people(s). He also had Israel, now has the Church, and will one day have two peoples? That seems different. Oh, and even though it's been denied by most Disps now, initial Dispensationalists held that OT saints were saved not by faith in a coming Messiah, but by the Law. So that was/is different. I'll try to think of better/clearer examples...I just need more coffee.
ResponderEliminarThe scribes also "knew" Messiah would establish an earthly empire, as did His disciples, even after he said, "My Kingdom is not of this world."
There is one vine, and branches are broken off and grafted in. "for God has the power to graft them in again." But now, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." That's good for us!
ResponderEliminarAnd any system that says there are two programs of salvation for two different people is simply wrong. Honestly, although I don't believe they were saved by the Law, I'm not sure I completely agree that they were saved by faith in a coming Messiah. Justification has always been by grace through faith in God. But what did Abraham know prior to being counted righteous before God? God didn't mention a Messiah to him. I'm still working through that one...
As far as "different", would you agree that the Holy Spirit was not in the world convicting men of sin and righteousness until AFTER Jesus left? (Jn 16:7-11) If so, then you have at least two "different" dispensations (as I would understand how they are different.)
What did Jesus mean when He said, "not of this world"? I don't think it means "not IN the world" or "not ever going to be on earth", but perhaps not originating from or belonging to the world.
"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.'" Jn 18:36
If Jesus never meant that his Kingdom would not be established on the earth in time, then he missed a perfect opportunity to set the Apostles straight in Acts 1.
He trained them "during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God."
And then BEFORE His ascension and AFTER being trained: "they asked him, 'Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?' He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.'"
Why didn't he say, "Weren't you listening? That's not going to happen, fellas!"? But the time that the Kingdom would be restored has been fixed by the Father.
Was that MacArthur talking in the last paragraph or you? I seem to remember that same paragraph in his talk about all self-respecting Calvinists being Premill. ;-)
ResponderEliminarI agree with you about the object of OT believers' faith. I think it was God and not necessarily THE Messiah. But they certainly trusted God as their Savior.
I also agree with you regarding that time before the HS and after being two dispensations (Old Covenant/New Covenant). God was still saving people by His sovereign power unto Himself. And they weren't just Israel. That was the "infant" picture of what God was doing, but He certainly began bringing in other nations before the NT (Jonah). Once the Gentiles were grafted in, do you think they'll be ungrafted again? I just don't see two people of God in Scripture (in prophecy)?
Me and Johnny Mac are tight like that, but I don't remember him saying anything about Acts 1. He could have, though. If I lifted it from anybody, it was probably Alva McClain and he's dead so he can't do anything about it now.
ResponderEliminarThere is one vine and Israel will be grafted (re-joined) into the same vine that the Gentiles are grafted into now. If any Jews believe now, they are part of the church and a new creation. But the important thing is that both groups HAVE to be grafted in. Ultimately, there are no natural branches because it is only God's sovereign will that brings anyone to Himself. Thankfully, God's a Calvinist. ;-)
But in conjunction with Christ's return, ethnic Israel will believe. They'll see the one they pierced (Zech 12:10), they'll repent and be cleansed (Zech 13:1). When Jerusalem is besieged, Jesus will come with his "holy ones" (the church?) and fight for Israel (Zech 14:5) They are His elect and He has a place of honor for them (Is. 45:4)
Isaiah says, "In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom the Lord of hosts has blessed, saying, 'Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance '.” (19:24-25) Israel is the preeminent people group here. No other ethnic group can say they are His inheritance or are His chosen, elect people. So it seems to me that among those who will be saved, there are many ethnic peoples, two groups that are functionally separate in God's plan for history (Jews and Gentiles), but spiritually, there is only one people.
Although Nineveh repented under Jonah, it apparently didn't take. Nahum prophesied their destruction and it happened shortly after.
Literally. :-)
I understand what you're saying about no natural branches and agree that God is sovereign to bring any in. But my understanding is that there is one branch and not two. Jews saved now, in the OT times, and in the future are all God's people, as are Gentiles. I go back to the Scripture that ethnic Israel is not the true Israel, only those regenerate. At all times this has been true and will be true in my understanding. The regenerate are God's people. As far as Jesus having "plenty of time" to straighten out the Apostles' understanding of the Kingdom (in Acts), that sounds a lot like the argument homosexual advocates use when they say Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality. That's the first thing I thought of when MacArthur made that comment in his speech. If the spiritual people of God were understood to be the true/real people of God (and not an ethnic group) like homosexuality was understood to be sin, then Christ's silence on the matter doesn't mean either are untrue.
ResponderEliminarAs far as Ninevah goes, my point wasn't their repentance but God's pursuing them. He has always had a heart for the nations. See my post, "Watching Missions."
As far as the environment question goes (in a previoius comment) about my embracing CT, I think it is equally true for both of us. I think the argument is as weak, however, as those who use a similar one in evangelism ("you just believe that stuff because your parents beleived it.") But I openly admit my study of CT brought me closer to it. I do think I gave Disp a good/fair shot. I just couldn't swallow it. All that said, I still have more in common with you (and BBC) than mainline evangelicals. In other words, I think we have a lot more in common than we do not.
The Apostles didn't ask about homosexuallity, they asked about the Kingdom. And Jesus' answer is noteworthy for what he explicitly says, not because of what he didn't say. The argument stands: the restoration of the Kingdom (which many CTers deny) is fixed in time by the Father. You can't get around that unless it's "un-literal" which would be a mean trick on the Apostles.
ResponderEliminarThe NT verses about ethnic Israel versus true Israel do not negate all the OT prophecies regarding Israel, the land and the Kingdom. There is no church in the OT; it is a "mystery" not revealed until the NT. It seems to me, that you can't be a bride if there's no bridegroom. So, you can't have a church without a revealed Christ. How can you say that an OT Israel looking for a Messiah is part of the same church that exists AFTER His first advent when there are Jews STILL looking for it? We would by no means call a modern day Jew waiting for a Messiah to show up the first time part of the church. The parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom is a parable regarding the coming Kingdom, not His first advent.
I can appreciate all you've said about common ground, but I don't think you have given Dispensationalism a fair shake because you misrepresent it. I hate to sound blunt, but many CT discussions I read about Dispensational Theology starts with a poor charecterization of what DT really teaches and end in some false conclusion or even mockery. "Those poor misinformed dispensationals..."
Take for example a blog you have on your roll - Fide-o. They have a posted "3 Systems of Theology" in which they compare DT, CT and New CT. It's obvious very quickly where their loyalties lie. Along other falsities, they say that DT understands God's main purpose in history as "national physical Israel." But CT understands it to be "His own glory." What? Is that a true comparison? Is that what they really think DT says is God's purpose? But hey, it's their blog, they can do what they want, but that is theological carelessness.
Regardless of "what my parents believed", I'm still responsible if I've never honestly weighed the alternatives. Along the same line of thought, you can't evangelize a JW with misconceptions about his or her faith. You have to talk to them and find out where they are before you can truly compare notes.
I need to do two things here:
ResponderEliminar1. Apologize for my tone. I may have come off a little less than gracious, which is odd considering I wrote that after a moving worship service and a sermon on meekness just hours prior to that.
2. Clarify my "church thing". There's a time aspect that I'm not addressing. I still say that based on the OT scriptures we have, there's no notion of a church and so OT believers looking for a Messiah were not part of any universal church. But, in time, we have a resurrected Christ who is building his church. Are the dead OT believers NOW part of the bride? I would have to give a 'no' to that as well - a shaky one, but a 'no'. Let's say Anna and Simeon died before Jesus did and didn't get to move their letter to the First Christian Church of Jerusalem. I would say they are part of believing Israel, but not the Church because the "Church age" began at Pentecost. That age will end when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. We'll see Anna and Simeon in Heaven, though, because they believed God and are "saved by grace through faith."
I think graciousness is lacking on all sides. Both sides are guilty of misrepresenting. This is why there was such an outcry on Fide-o and other blogs against Mac's speech on Disp Premill vs. Amill. The outcry was mostly against the misrepresentation, moreso than the system.
ResponderEliminarI think I am in more of a place to say I have given Disp a fair shake. Because I see faults in DT you say I misrepresent it. I, along with other CTs feel the same way toward DTs for misrepresenting our system. There is a huge failure to understand on both sides.
I don' t think CTs are the only ones to condescend. DTs equally condescend CT, especially in regard to the literal vs allegorial interpretation. Both sides are passionate, so I'm understanding of some condescension. But I have been on both sides, and have heard much from both sides so I have a different perspective than most. I haven't only studied one system from one perspective. I've heard both sides argue from their perspective. And so at this point in my life I am in the CT camp. But as much as I disagree with DT, I still have great admiration for the work and ministry of many DTs. And because I believe both sides (from the camps I have been in) are committed the God's glory and His inerrant Word, I remain (or try to) undogmatically gracious to both.